Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
I thought she would tell me that her land was contaminated with unexploded bombs when I asked her what motivated her to become the Team Leader of one of Mines Advisory Group's badass all women bomb clearance teams.
Instead, she was silent. Against her will, gravity pulled tears from her eyes. Her team of friends looked on in disbelief. No one had known that when she was 8, her father was farming and hit a live cluster bomb that killed him.
Nothing in my broken Lao vocabulary of food and drink words was appropriate to respond with. In a panic, the only thing I could think to do was give her the peacebomb cuff bracelet off my arm and put it on hers. A teeny gesture. When I saw her again almost a year later, she was still wearing the bracelet inscribed beauty will save the world. I hope she knows she is that beauty.
A short documentary made by ARTICLE22 in 2010 during the International Convention on Cluster Munitions in Laos. Featuring whistleblower, activist, and author Fred Branfman, Vietnam War veteran medic, Larry Schwab, and the people of Laos including second generation artisans who craft spoons and jewelry from detonated bomb shrapnel and other scrap.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
Emmanuel and Liz
Emmanuel 0:02
Alright let’s kill this, let’s do it.
Liz 0:22
Alright my friend.
Liz 2:21
Normally, you're traveling the globe and you're leading workshops in person. Tell us a little bit about what your normal life looks like right now. And the timing of the app is really lucky because people really need this right now.
Emmanuel 2:47
In terms of what the app is about, it's basically for somebody to program their life. You program yourself in order to create the life you want. And it started with me. And it begins with a question who owns your mind? Is it fear, worry, or anxiety, who owns your mind? And because the battles are fought in the mind, and they are won in the heart, and whoever owns your mind owns you and everything you create. And so, I will talk about myself what owns my mind was fear, worry, anxiety and poverty. But what dominated my mind the most was trauma. What is it? I call it a soul mother. I call it an invasion of demons occupies space in your mind. And you have flashbacks in the day and then you have nightmares at night. Well, where did it begin? So, it began, the setback began in my childhood, so I was born when my country was at war. And then I became a child soldier. So those different experiences and a refugee you know and witnessing your entire home village wiped up you losing everything me losing my mom all my aunt has disappeared. The infrastructure that make a child safe and make you become human, is taken away from me. And now getting my life together was a challenge.
You know, I remember when I used to be in school and a teacher would ask me a question and I would not even know that I've been asked a question. A pen would be in my hand and stuck there and it's heavy because a flashback of my childhood has come. And one thing I hated about the flashback when we're talking about when I mentioned what trauma is, is what follows after that, if I stay in it for long, what follows is my body, myself and my body hurts. And then the next thing that happened is it crunch my heart. Just like something is being squeezed like that joy in yourself, the joy inside you something's like snatching it and squeezing it out and then you're left empty. And how you describe, that is you that's like depression calling you and isolating yourself. No, I never had a therapist that I could go to and just open up. My wish was somebody asking me a question. “What is going on in your mind?” Nobody asked that question. People will ask you are you okay? That's not it. I want a specific question. What is in your mind? You know, and so with the way that my life is at, up meditation is built, it's documented on principles. So, let's say, one of the principals would be, let's say, calm, which is one of the principles the universal principle which is ability to control your emotions whenever thing is erupting negatively or positively. Now the reason I call it calm it's because it's the only place I can get into a state of not existing. And what I like about it, this is the place out of let everything to be so not interfere. So, when a positive thought comes, I will not interfere with it, I just allow it to be when a negative thought come, I allow them to be and I allow everything to hurt. If there's a pain, you just allow the pain to be and you just see how it's evolving in your body.
The calm is, one of the most important thing is just focus on your breath. And how I discovered that is, each and every kid, every child knows how to meditate, every resilient kid knows how to meditate, but they don't know it's called a meditation. The universe tells us what to do when we experience extremes, pain. I remember when, when my mom died. The impact did not hit me that time. And how the news came about was a soldier turn up in in our house and he came with a bowl and gave each one of us sticks. And then he asked for water, we fill the bowl with water. And then what the soldier says is ask any of your loved one. And if the sticks down in this bowl, they're alive, but if the stick fall off, they're dead. And then we all balance each and every person put up the stick that was standing that we're balancing on the bowl, you'll tell you that person is alive. Then I will ask and to so the stick fall they said that aunt is dead. Then I put my mom's stick, and say, I'm sorry to tell you, she's gone. Then my sister everybody put it in. I don't understand how this, he came with that formula of energetically using the stick to be able to tell us this person is alive or dead. But to ask us kids and many people my sister everybody has started crying. For me. I still held my thought I didn't believe it until news came later more only told you mom was gone, but I wasn't hit by that. Now the second thing that happened is, so no one family could take us all in. So, my sister was staying with my stepmom, my stepmom beat her, broke her teeth. I was with relatives and then I was taken into a different family. Now the family that I was taken in, what this family did is they accepted me when I came in, but I was given a lot of work. They treat their kids really well, but I was treated a little bad. You know, when you had an orphan, it's terrible.
And then one thing happened is I was around seven I went hunting. And so, when we went for hunting, I had my spear. And there was a huge wild animal. I don’t know if it was a wild beast or a big antelope, it just came toward me and there was a lot of animals. So, I threw my spear and it hit the animal. And then what happened is the animal slowed down the other young man what 12, 14, 16 ran after him to finish it. And they said, guys, it's a man's who throws the first spear, so we have to honor them. And how they do it, it's all the internal organs of the animal are given to the person who threw the first spear and the leg. So that's how they recognized you as the person who threw the first spear. But I was small, I couldn't cut all the internal organs and so I took one leg and the liver and some intestine. And so, when I went to the house, the people were taking care of me, I give them, they're so excited, and I was so excited. They were able to identify by the liver and the intestine that it was my kill. And so that night, I went and took a little bit of rest, so that I could come and catch up with dinner. You know what happened? They ate everything. And they ate the food. And I slept hungry. Now, that was the most torturing night I ever had. And that's when I miss my mom. Because my mom will not do that. My mom will not make me sleep hungry. I cried the whole night and I realized this is it. I'm no longer going to be safe here. So, I started missing my mom the whole night, I just cried. You're here, seven years old, I'll cry and cry and cry. And I was wishing that the sunlight would come out so I could run out of that house and just run to the bush and just go and cry more. And so, I got, I woke up, morning came I ran to the wild, and I just went there. And I keep on walking, walking until I find a big tree. And I just stop under that tree and continue to cry and cry until I was exhausted that there was no more tears and I just dropped down, falling.
Now in this in this falling down and lying down crying is, I was so exhausted that the only thing that was happening is my breath. That's it, just breathing in and out in and out in and I started enjoying it. I said what is this? So, I started just enjoying it. Then my senses became so active that I could feel things, I could smell things really good, I could hear from a long distance, I could hear miles away what is talking, what is near and what is it, my senses were so a lot and I started enjoy you know. In that night, that day when I was crying, I was praying I was cussing god I'm asking questions, like everything possible a kid would have in the covenant. But in the end, what one in the day after I put all that frustration is that moment where I happen to experience heaven as a kid a state of non-exist and I can't seem to find that. Now I can get into a sweet spot that is similar to it, but there's nothing compared to that moment when I felt as a kid. And then I slept after that. So now just imagine like from 11am you go from eight o'clock until like around 5pm. You woke up you realize you haven't eaten lunch, you didn't eat dinner, but I still had energy. And you know what happened to me at that moment? A robust energy was released, that I feel became the foundation of everything that I do, because I felt I'm no longer safe anymore. And I say, now that I am like this, I want to be a part of a solution.
Liz 11:12
Emmanuel, there's so many things that stick out in this story and one of them is the mind body connection and how real it is, and anyone who, who doesn't associate this connected, continuous reality between what happens here and how that affects our body is missing out. And I think a lot of people are starting to really understand that through meditation. Now I think more and more people are becoming familiar with the way that breathing can impact exactly the moment where we need to solve a problem and gain composure and self-control.
The other thing that really jumps out is the fact of trust being a turning point for you. Your trust in your caretakers was broken. But yet, I'm sure there were many other times where trust was really difficult to have in the situations you were in whether you were, trekking from South Sudan to Kenya, or knowing whether or not someone you called a friend was actually a friend. So how have those experiences shaped the way you trust today and the way you assess how to trust?
Emmanuel 12:51
In my own experiences, you can speak on one thing, but that can just put you in a box. Now, when trauma comes, it takes you it's freezes everything. Every principle that you know, every kindness, all the stuff, it's like a virus that goes inside you and just hacks into you. So, it could be somebody breaking your trust. If somebody breaks your trust and someone did you something wrong, it will impact everything inside you. Everything inside you is impacted. Let me take it this way. As a kid, I witnessed my village burned down. Me, my mom, my brother, and my uncle were beaten. My nose was here. My aunt is dead. I experienced those things. My village wiped out. Now as a kid when I became a child soldier, because of the energy that was planted in me. The seeds that was planted my desire was to kill as many Muslims and Arabs as possible. That was energy put inside me. And let me tell you that dark energy has power. As a kid I had, I was in two parts. One, I know to walk in the light part, and there's joy in this peace of mind, okay, when I go and meditate for a few seconds, and focus in that breathing, where everything is out, you go in that state of nothingness to experience heaven. But when you come back, the reality is still there. The only thing that does for you is it gives. It allows you to create mental space. And that mental space you've created in which you can add new knowledge if you don't have proper content to put in, that you can use to, to clean up the virus insect, the situation is still going to be there. So just breathing in and out. It's not enough. What happened is the soul, what is in your environment, what are you taking in. So, the kid even though I did not practice it, that time I did it. I only had an experience of it in the worst form, but I didn't know that this is a practice that I have to do. You know? And so, here I am, with bitterness in my heart.
And let me tell any person who's there who's listening. It's impossible to walk in your purpose. Or it's impossible to have compassion, or walk in your full empathy, whatever you call it, when your heart is, is bitter. When you have that anger, because one thing I came to understand about this thing is it was controlling me it has energy. When I wanted to give up from the training of becoming a child soldier, it gave me the energy when a flashback come, I see what happened in my village, that fire in my heart that bitterness light up and I want to kill. It's in me yeah. I'm a child but it gave me so much force but also draining. It was an energy that is tightening you up, it told you about it. It's aggressive, allow you to act temporarily doesn't give it long term energy because it's like it's using a lot of energy. It's two way, it's a double-edged sword, it's hurting inside but he can also use it to hurt others. Now, being able to remove that in my heart, because when I told you any kingdom that is not united shall be destroyed. So, my heart when beaten, this will put in that's was how my kingdom was divided internally. So, learning to forgive, and then we have a forgiveness meditation. So, if you want to clean up your heart to see what energy, what do I need to power my heart. Should I power my heart with purpose? Or should I power my heart with bitterness? Or should I power my heart with self-interest? So, what is powering your heart.
And so when your heart is powered by purpose, you're going to be in balance, you'll have this peace of mind. So it's a whole process when we're talking about trust. Anyone who breaks trust, they have the one with the problem.
You asked me about the how to build trust. So, when your trust is broken, you have a sea of experience a certain pain and now you need to forgive. So, if you don't forgive, then that is going to be in you. So, when you're bitter this what happened. When we are bitter, it's a monster. It will hurt anybody around us. So, if somebody broke your trust and you're not letting go, now you're gonna have your loved ones at home. It will act at a subconscious level to even damage relationship with your children, your kids, your aunties, your friends, your business, every relationship, anybody who's related to you, just because somebody else broke your trust, and you do not let go if you cut it that it would just mess up everything.
Liz
It's really about realizing that if we don't take care of our inner world, it does manifest on the exterior to everybody in different ways and the way you can best take care of anyone else is by prioritizing yourself. To what extent have people who have been angels for you made that difference? So maybe talk a little bit about the balance between having some luck with people who've been there as a guide. But then the work that you did to take advantage of the situation that was better and then keep making your situation better.
Emmanuel
I like the way you put it. Anybody who say there was nobody who reached out to me, they're lying. Because there's always someone. When you're traumatized, you cannot see them. You cannot see, you're in your own world, you think you're the only one suffering and then you could be taken by a different. If you're riding on, on an energy field that is so dark, it chases people away. It pushes people, even someone who may want to help you, chase them away. I would credit a lot of my transformation now, to basic things my mom taught me when as a kid.
The stories my mom told me, the stories my grandmother told me, and how I watch my mother deal with situations. Now, so on that observation, children learn through observation and being just told what to do. And so those things were controlling how I react on the subconscious level.
This is a great lesson my mom taught me I think she planted the seed as a kid. There's this woman who brought her kid and I look at the kid. And I say, Mom, this kid is ugly. You know I was a kid and the mom was there. Then my mom pulled me aside. What did you say? This kid is ugly. I say mom I say, what did you see? Can you come again? Look, look carefully. Look carefully at this kid and look deeply with your heart. Look at the kid again, from your senses. Forget about all these things. And look again. And the kid was smiling at me. And the eyes were, like, so nice to me. And I was able to forget that ugliness of the kid. And my mom asked me what did you saysabout the kid. The kid is has got a beautiful, beautiful smile. And mom says Okay, next time before you say anything about somebody, see if you can see something else.
If you have kindness, you'll give it. If you don't have it, where do you go? If you have hate, that's all you're going to give.
Now, one of the things that my mom left to me, things she told me is, if anybody ever said anything bad to you can say 10 good things to yourself.
How did that transform me? So I evolved it over time. So when I'm stuck under the tree, I do this 10 good things I said to myself. Yeah. And then what's the next thing you do? Okay, I use this something called positive mindset on the meditation, where you sit down and you allow your thoughts to be. Yeah, then you pick a bottle with a thought. So I used to this timer, you don't fight a thought. But there's a time you can find the thought. When you don't want to fight a thought is when you want to go to a state of calmness. You just want to breathe in and out, breathe in and out and do nothing and just enjoy that.
I wish I knew this a long time ago, but I discovered it in the process. You know, when I used to be in Kenya, I used to lock myself in a darkroom. And in this darkroom, it's also a moment where I would just breathe in and out and then I'll say, okay, demons, you're invited. Now, tell me what you were saying in the day. And then I just let them do their thing and says, like, I sit down and watch a movie. So can you imagine like watching your, your thoughts. I listened to the fear the stories, like I love the fear games because I'd sit down, and I watch a scary movie about events that are going to happen to me. So it's like, Okay, tell me what's gonna happen, then they'll tell me this and then I'll remind you and I'll say, Oh, that's really scary. And then I'll say, Okay, then how do I prevent it? Then the part of my vein will create another story, okay? This is how you prevented this. So, fear, on a more genetic level, on a meditative level. It's what made wise men great, because they listen to the stories that the fear is telling them so they can prepare. Because there's some it's a part of our brain, it's tuned that we will always look for the negativity, whether you like it or not.
Liz
It's like practicing, you know, and rehearsing the song, a new song, you're gonna work on it, you're gonna let it be what it is when you're practicing. But then when you go on stage, that's, that's when the real performances and all of that work rehearsing has prepared you for that moment in a way.
Emmanuel
Yeah. So I mean, like the way I'm saying it one thing is now I love fear, for one thing. Because fear can tell me things that courage will not tell me. That is the fear of now, where the fear of today is the fear of the things of the past than this the fear of the future. The fear of things of the past gives you depression, because of the defeats what happened to you, how you humiliated and all of that the trauma, it can give you depression. The fear of the moment will give you issues like stress. And the fear of the future will give you different types of anxieties. And so now how do we deal with these things?
So, all of these things are part of your brain telling you, you need to do something. It's your, it's your subconscious communicating to you. It's your body communicating a, you're going to hit there, you're going to do this, then all you have to do is ask what do I have to do? Okay, call Elizabeth. Tell her this is disturbing you and then you call Elizabeth, you know, last night in my head, this was happening, you know? And so what happened is with this kind of fear, so have I found different things on Okay, when I'm dealing with this, what name do I give this? So okay, this one is courage. So I'm gonna create a courage meditation. Okay, what about this one? This is positive mindset. And what is positive mindset meditation or positive mindset meditation is the ability to engage my mind to do what I want. I think it I imagine. I visualize, I organize then I plan and I strategize and then I act with a burning desire. So what is that? What would positive mindset do to me? positive mindset will make me think 30 years because a traumatized mind cannot think beyond a month, beyond a week. It only thinks of the moment of today. It doesn't think ahead. And that's what that's stuck here. And if you look at it, we could take an example of Africa, where wealthy, wealthy, wealthy continent, but our leaders still have traumas. We are programmed to self-destruct. So even though colonialism is gone, but the colonialism left us, internally as slaves internally, not free. We don't like ourselves. We consume stuff from the west`. If you don't, and we hide our money in the West, nobody wants to hide money in Africa. We don't like each other. We don't trust each other.
So, all of those things has been left with us. But how do we move forward, we have to reprogram ourselves. Because, and that's where I really focus in, then there's a principle, which I'm talking about called programming and reprogramming of self, which is also meditation in its own, which is hacking into your subconscious. You know, so that's what there's a whole documentation of the mind life is our meditation. So it's not just one meditation. It's if you're looking to build businesses, or if you're looking in depend where you want to go, we focus on creating habits and beliefs, because those are the habits and beliefs. If you have a vision, you have a dream, and you know your purpose. If you don't create the right habits, you're not gonna achieve the vision. If you don't create the right habits, you're not gonna walk in your purpose. You know, if you don't create the right habits, you'll miss the goals that you'll achieve. And so, and that's how I've been spending my years. So even if my business don't well, I don't blame my people, I look at myself, what is it I need to work inside me. I gave myself three years to create 36 habits. So it's just where now this brain can be rewired. But it can only be wired by who by the owner. Only that because you just have to commit to yourself. Everybody's looking for answers outside, but the answers are inside us.
Liz
I really appreciate how you talk about transformation as a multi-step process, where, you know, some meditations are specifically built to focus on breathing and clearing the mind. Whereas others are focused on actually squeezing the thoughts and challenging the thoughts and debating them. And I think that's something that's new for me in the way your app presents, essentially, a program that is designed to allow people to be able to control their process in a way and they start to know what they need in a given moment.
Emmanuel
I like the way you describe it. There's like 10 basic principles that made me transform myself. And so I document them and each one of them has a meditation. And then there's like a whole meditation of it that is, you see, like these beads here. Each and every beat is a principle. But not everything is put in a meditation, so it's easy for someone you press. Now, for example, the guiding principles are the ones now we create mantras around. So for example, If somebody is going to act on creating discipline in their life, then they have to do 200 mantras of discipline every day. But there is the guiding principles that it's between every 10 mantras is a guiding principle, before you go to the next one. It's a guiding. So you're creating a map in your mind and often those things become like the sensors that collect data for you to manage your life in the subconscious. So you have gratitude, they're your positive mindset, they're your faith, their faith is a whole different thing. Then you have courage, meditation, which is a whole thing. And then you have love meditation is a whole thing, then you have a purpose meditation, like how that one professor was using it and just call and say, tomorrow, when I'm lost in the day, I just do purpose meditation. It's like a snack. I don't, I don't want to do the long ones because I'm busy. Just I just go for the snack and that's not text me for the whole day. I'm okay. And so but if you really, really, really want to transform your life, this is like the bigger meditation. There you press it at night, or you can do it in the morning, and it tells mantras, all you have to do is listen and follow, listen and follow. So the way it works for someone to have a 360 impact, the first step is you get what you want to work on for that month, the habit you want to create. And then you do those mantras for 30 days, you don't change anything. That's the focus 200 every day. Then the second step would be, you study what it takes you're programming yourself about.
You look for the stories. Every day you're learning new stories about it, because the language that we learn that three ways in which we learn as human beings, metaphor and then you get poetry. And then you have got stories. So those are the ancient language which absorb information quickly. So now when you're going to grab the concept of through the stories and the facts, the stories, expand your memory and create space, and so they become your soul food. So the mantra the meditation become the gym for your mind. And then the soul food, which is also a meditation in itself is you going to collect that data the information and then feed it to create stronger muscles. Then the action is the step now you're going to test how big are my muscles, you do it, and it allows you to watch it. So three steps, your mantras, you search, and then you do action for 30 days. And then how does it happen scientifically.
Discipline is a habit. consistent. Persistence is a habit. integrative thinking it's a habit, leading with questions as a habit. Think about every leadership quality is a habit and a belief. So both of them are hand in hand. And so those are the things we have to focus in creating. And now creating those things, we'll find a way in which you can hack into yourself to create the right habit as fast as possible.
When you do that act the first day, because the new thing your brain releases something called neurotrophins and neurotrophins create dendrites, and the dendrites now absorb this new information and new learning. And then there's something called mylean that is created in the process. With this new information is created then a pathway. New pathways are created, and they're protected. And that's what changed behavior. After 30 days you see you'll be able to and that's the same process I used to rewire my brain, it doesn't mean the trauma is gone. What happened is, I have created multiple new pathways for communication. But if the traumas you have flashback is not as strong as before, because the right side of my brain that has guided me to healing is working. And let me show you how you can track traumatize people in a day, easily. Yeah.
When our body when we are traumatized fully, it wants simple things like a cake, you just want to dance happy jokes, comedy, art, three simple stuff. That's what the brain one the right side of the brain is interested in that. So what did I use? Music. So music will make misty heaven again. What else did I do? I dance. So there's different parts of different nations different kind of people have come with concept. Now when you have a bit of mental space, you can go and talk with a counselor and ask them question yeah, I'm bothered by this and this then you will have enough space to observe what the counselor is telling. Most people that are counseling traumatized people are doing it wrong. In fact, what they should do is bring music, let them dance and jump around. And then after that this space in the head to content.
Liz
Well, you're saying joy is healing method finding joy.
Emmanuel 4
You just nailed it. How can you find joy without your purpose? It's impossible. We get snippet of it you get here and there. When we dance, out body releases a lot of good things. Oxytocin, you know, the hormone is released, which make us laugh. Nobody tells you to laugh, but you start laughing because you're dancing. And dopamine is released, they give you focus. And then you have your intuitive energies release. Your empathy is released as endorphins. You know, and I'm trying to speak scientists love. Those I'm trying to bring those scientific like dopamine will help your brain focus just like you and gone to the gym and be creative and create images. And then you have oxytocin which allow you to laugh. Then you have the other one, just like when you hear a story. So all experiences, you do yoga, all those hormones can release, you go and do them type of meditation, they can release. But having a variety is like having a balanced diet. So you can do your little yoga, you're gonna dance, when you do your little, whatever, you're gonna dance if you want to read your Bible. When you do this. You're creating that it becomes neurological, this one neur-obics there's a book called neur-obics because when you do all of this thing, and you're mixing all of this thing, what happens is your brain becomes so active and that's when it does you good.
Liz
When you put it this way, again, you're emphasizing the mind body connection. And here is the framework, to essentially be the love. Be the love that makes you love yourself. Be the love that makes you exude this positivity for everyone around you and I that's why I love your message so much. I mean you have many messages but be the love kind of encapsulates everything you've just described.
Emmanuel
I mean, how would you become loved if it's not in you. So, I want to say we have created a system that's snatched away our humaneness that the current system that has been created we are adapting to it. But it's so toxic. The only way you know you're human is if you can dance. If you can jump around. If those basic things that kids do, when we leave them, that's when we become like robots.
Look at what Corona has done for us now. This is where everybody's gonna be tested in this situation that we have corona will know who are purpose driven individuals and who are grabbers. You know, the grabbers are going to look for people to kill and take more of them or they're going to not spend anything of their own. They're going to try to take advantage of people who are being pushed by the system. And then the purpose driven individual will sacrifice themselves for others.
Liz
Your point about how individual choices impact the whole ecosystem, the social and economic ecosystem that we are all connected to. So the more people that really do try to find their purpose and, and I'll use COVID-19 as an opportunity where people are at home and we have this time that is a gift that it could be a silver lining one of the silver linings of this pandemic.
Emmanuel
I think you nailed it there.
Liz
There is a process where empathy for others becomes maybe more in tune, and really thinking of what it takes to walk in someone's shoes and to try to understand, like you said, what is it that's causing this particular behavior?
Emmanuel
And one of the biggest prints universal principle we have is we have been given the choice to create the life we want. So, where we are in life is how we want it. We want it if you don't want it that way, you look for it. That is one of the greatest courts that I saved today myself. Ask and you shall be given, sick and you find knock on the door shall be open it. now, I like that one because if this is where I want to go, did I ask did I call somebody? Did I knock at the door? You know, what did I do today? What seed did I plant today?
You have to have at least five skills to be able to be to add value. How are you going to add value, or I want to make peace in the world and joy, okay? You want to give world peace and joy? What skills do you have right now that you can help the world? Nothing? What are you doing to grab a skill nothing. Oh, I'm just gonna meditate no, meditate, create mental space, learn a skill.
If you have joy in your heart and your peace of mind, you have enough mental space to take difficult stuff in.
Liz
Emmanuel. Thank you so much. This is such a gift to everyone in our community. And to me.
Emmanuel
Talk to you soon, sister.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
This transcript has been lightly edited for readability.
Elizabeth Suda discusses Sustainability and Systemic Change with Maya Penn, Animator and CEO
Liz 0:01
Yay, cool. I love the way you were your ARTICLE22.
Maya 0:07
Thank you. And then of course I have my Iittle design, ya know to represent.
Liz 0:18
That's right. That's right. I, I can't believe it. I'm at my parents place on Long Island, and it's where I grew up. Normally I have a stash of jewelry here and in Brooklyn where I live, but I consolidated just before.
Maya 0:37
Oh wow.
Liz 0:39
Before COVID-19 crisis. And so now pretty much everything is in Brooklyn. And so I've been wearing
Oh wow.
the same pair, so it feels really weird not to be mixing it up every day. But yeah, it's just for me, right? Tha
Maya 0:54
Right. But I mean, it's still like super gorgeous compliments any outfit. So.
Liz 1:01
That's how I feel you can't go wrong with the hoop.
Maya 1:05
Absolutely.
Liz 1:06
Um, so how are you doing? And where are you right now?
Maya 1:09
Yeah, so I'm in, well actually Canton Georgia, but I usually just say Atlanta, Georgia, since everyone knows where Atlanta is, we're doing good. And, you know, me and my family, we're just taking time to, you know, work on projects that we haven't been able to while we've been traveling and, you know, it's just, you know, really crazy time. While, also you can kind of go inside and reflect and kind of work on other elements and areas, you know, that you have that you might have been neglecting before, so, but we've been leaving well, you know, thankfully.
Liz 1:46
Yeah. And and where are you in your house right now? It looks like a studio or work room?
Maya 1:52
Yeah. So this is my studio, where my Mad Science Lab, whatever you want to call it. You know, I'm doing all of my designing writing animating work just kind of a little bit of everything. But yeah, I'm just in my studio and this windows really nice because it has a lot of light. It's good for zoom calls.
Liz 2:14
It does it's so bright and I think it's sunny is the word that is it yellow in there?
Maya 2:21
Yeah, it's not it's not yellow, but it's definitely a lot of natural like light coming in right now, which is good because this past week, we had a lot of tornadoes in this area. So you know, I had to go to the basement for like couple of nights and like it was kind of, so I'm thankful that the weather changed and now we're getting sun.
Liz 2:42
So
Wow, is is having tornadoes a typical thing near Atlanta, Georgia, or is that something that's new?
Yeah, no, tornadoes are pretty common for the South. Specifically in the summertime more often like severe weather is more common in the summer but of course, it's more crazy now because of climate change and like, the weather is very confused. I will just say that like, because it will go from, like hot like summer to freezing the next day. It's a lot but yeah, I think it's I think severe weather is pretty common, but it's more common in summer in the south.
Well, Mother Nature is definitely has been screaming, but maybe she's been having some fresh breath of air recently. And we can get to that in a minute. But I'd love to know a little bit about kind of how your your work has changed. I mean, normally you're off giving TED Talks. You've had three TED talks so far. Is that about right?
Maya 3:51
Yes. Yeah. Then three TED Talks. Yeah. Yeah, it's so I mean, this also unprecedented, and you know, work has definitely changed. And now there's a big focus and conversation around activism from home. And it's, you know, it's really been interesting for me to not only kind of recalibrate how I do things, as activists as an artist, as an entrepreneur, but also kind of, you know, everyone's learning together, which is really cool, in a sense, even though this is a really tough time that we can kind of be there for each other and, you know, encourage and teach each other because I actually have my own IGTV series. And I did an episode recently, on one of my shows where I'm talking about how small businesses, creatives and nonprofit owners can recover from COVID-19. And, you know, this kind of tips that I have, and I'm spoke alongside of a business coach and consultant who's really amazing. And so, it's definitely been interesting, but it's been good to kind of feel that sense of community and having to do things from long distance, being on sustainability boards and having changed how we do our meetings and all of those different things is just been really a learning experience. But it's kind of good that we have this experience to know how to do this in the future, too.
Liz 4:36
Absolutely. I mean, I think one, one of the things that we're all learning from this is that no matter where we are, we live in a world where technology does facilitate togetherness, and that is absolutely one of the positives of you know, social media, the interconnection, and you know, when when we are creating content, we have the opportunity to create content that is positive and that can inspire people right from our own couches and you know, it change does really start at the local level and forget about that it starts within you. I mean, a lot of the people that we collaborate with at ARTICLE22 are are practitioners of meditation or are really, you know, looking at how their personal transformation can can influence family and their community. And I mean, I know you've also been very active recently in your own community from home. What, what have you been doing?
Maya 6:35
Yeah, so that's something that's been really big for me. I've been really focusing on trying to support my community as much as possible. I've been creating a face masks from remnant fabric from my sustainable fashion line creating face masks for healthcare workers, and then also donating to the local food banks here in Atlanta. Supporting those local food banks because, of course, there are a lot of vulnerable communities who are food insecure during this crisis and even kids because they're out of school a lot of kids who are food insecure rely on school lunches for their food and so, you know, really trying to strengthen and support those programs that are reaching out and helping those communities, provide them with the resources that they need. So those are those are the things that I've been doing as as well as just trying to spread awareness or educate others or share any other tips that I have for anyone to kind of help them get through this. And just kind of taking that action because it's, it's really important for all of us to do our part. You know, whatever we have the ability to do and whatever we can do, it's really important to do that.
Liz 7:55
Absolutely. And, and so just kind of circling back to the notion of self care. What are some things that you, you do while you're thinking of other people? You know, how do you take care of yourself? Do you have any particular rituals?
Maya 8:10
Yeah, so a lot of meditating a lot of writing and, you know, also kind of learn, I'm starting to learn certain patterns that I have. I've learned that when I need to take my mind off of everything that's happening, I start baking. I don't know why, but I've made like so many batches of vegan muffins and Anthony biscuits and stuff like this and like it's very cathartic. I always love cooking and baking and meditation, reading, painting. And I'm thankful that I have a backyard I actually have an organic garden in my backyard and I can just kind of disappear in there for a while if I just need to commune with nature. And just you know, there's so many tools that I have that I can, you know, just take care of myself and breathe and relax and it's good to be able to not have to kind of be on the go so much and I hate that it's under the circumstance, but it does give me time to kind of catch up with myself. Like I think a lot of us have not been able to do that. And to check in like, how are we doing, you know, so, you know, it's definitely trying to you know, take make use of this time while I can.
Liz 9:32
Yeah, one one phrase that I picked up in my art history classes way back when was the idea of negative space and the if something not being present, you know, a choice to not have a motif or have a sculpture that is missing apart is as as intentional, unnecessary as what is there and I feel like this moment in time is very much like that it's giving us negative space in the most positive way it's negative to, to think and to, to reflect and to envision a different picture and to heal. And that is so necessary and thinking about how we move forward from all of this. You don't just figure it out in a day it takes it takes time. And
Maya 10:32
Absolutely
Liz 10:33
One thing, one thing that is so present in the way you work is collaboration because people are collaborating right now even digitally and people will again, there's no doubt, I'm totally optimistic that we will all be able to share the same physical space and we won't have to remain six feet apart. So collaboration is is very much key to ARTICLE22 spirit. It's how we started working with you and other leaders. And I'd love to hear a little bit about your perspective on collaboration and what it's meant to you. Throughout the your very young career, you said something that I really love and I think it, it really is worth me just reading the quote, your definition of success is not only when you meet your goals, but also when you help other people achieve theirs. So maybe talk a little bit about that.
Maya 11:42
Yeah, that's always been such a huge core of not only my work, but just how I move through the world. And you know, being a young entrepreneur, activist artist and you know, kind of building this career but also being a young woman of color. You know, all of these things have made me very, you know, aware of how important it is to reach back into support and to lift up others as much as possible. And everyone has knowledge, experience, more story that can impact or help educate or help lift up others. And so, collaboration, as we see now is so critical and so important. You know, this time that we're in, every single person is being asked to do their part to help in this fight. And whether that is by staying home, or by trying to support your local communities, support health care workers, to support people who are in lower income communities. All of those things have made people more aware to you know, what can they do to help or you know, reaching out to others to even receive help a lot of people don't even do that people that are in need. And so, all of those, those elements are really being brought to the forefront. And in my own career, you know, I've now been at an at a point where I have mentees. And then I started this when I was eight years old. I'm 20 now and I've technically been the sustainable fashion world and sustainability space for for 12 years now. But now I'm at a point where I have other young women who are like eight, 9, 10 years old, and I like I have this idea for a business and I want to start this or I want to do something to give back in my community, and what advice do you have, and now I'm able to help, you know, teach them and kind of show them and give them advice on what they can do. And so that's like, kind of one of my, you know, examples that I've used over the years. And I think that that reaching back to others, is now being amplified on a on a scale that really shows how crucial and critical it is for us all to really keep moving forward and thriving.
Liz 13:59
Yeah well, I couldn't I couldn't agree more. And I think another one of the main threads of your work in addition to collaboration is also sustainability. And when when we started thinking about what your message was going to be on the bracelet, you you came up with something that just stopped us all in our tracks, and it kind of sums everything up love mother Earth. And in this moment, we're seeing that change can happen that that mother nature can heal herself. We've seen you know, carbon emissions fall so sharply, of course that comes with a serious economic consequence, which is absolutely problematic, but there's proof that change is possible. And that when we come together, and we all agree, we can make a change. What what sort of, you know, inspiration did you have from your message love Mother Earth? And what sort of learnings environmentally Do you think there may be from COVID crisis?
Maya 15:20
Yeah, so COVID-19 has really had an unforeseen kind of impact, or unprecedented rather impact on the environment and the community like kind of eco consciousness and environmental activism. Well, first of all, it does show us you know, well, what can we learn from this crisis and of course, this can be applied to so many different areas of our life ours, of our society and of our of our governments. But as far as sustainability, it really there are a lot of questions of you know, once we come on the other side of this crisis, and you know, we have everything in place to prevent things like this from happening again, then is looking towards we still have climate change, we still have this issue that's, you know, again, a huge global threat to all of us and will affect so many different industries and so many different communities of people. And how can we, you know, you know, look at and address climate change with the same urgency because it will affect and destroy so many communities it already is. There are so many examples now of climate refugees, in a lot of countries and from people in in Bangladesh to Guatemala to even you know, past symbols like Puerto Rico, and so on and so forth. How the climate is impacting, especially a lot of black and brown communities adversely, and so it's already happening right now. And so because of that, we really need to know how to address this with a similar urgency, because of how quickly this is shifting and becoming more and more of a dangerous situation. And also to there has been a lot of, you know, talk around because of the the lack of human activity and travel and all these other things, how the, you know, wildlife and how the climate and carbon emissions, how all that's being positively impacted and but the thing that you have to also confront is that there is this idea of that, well, you know, humans are the the virus and humans are the reason you know, why everything is the way it is and why the environment has been so negatively impacted. And that really is not the case because there are many communities of people, you can look to indigenous cultures who know how to live in harmony with the earth, humans didn't just come out, you know, doing all of these things and impact in the planet, it really all comes down to the infrastructures that have been set in place and our society and kind of changing that and dismantling that making sustainability more accessible to more communities. And just really recognizing that, you know, where we have to change these areas, because it can be possible because it's already done. It's already happening. There are already people who know how to do this, how to live in harmony with nature. And so that's something to be recognized and something that we just all collectively have to come back to, and change on, you know, individual levels and higher levels as well.
Liz 18:37
Yeah, I mean, one thing that we've always been so inspired by is when we're working with our artists and partners in Laos, you know, what you described, living with the environment in harmony with animals and nature. They're already doing this and they have been doing this and there's so much ancient wisdom that we need to reintegrate into our modern society and the answers are actually present and perhaps it's that we need to look to certain communities that have been living in the more traditional way to, to find those answers and and respect their knowledge and elevate it and learn from what they can. They can teach us so I definitely feel you on that. And, you know, transformation is not easy. It requires sacrifice it requires, planning requires discipline. What advice do you have for people that are reflecting right now in this moment about how they can change their, you know, habits and practice a more sustainable way of living? What what kind of top three or five things even would you say?
Maya 20:13
Yeah, so I think what's important for people that are wanting to live more sustainably is that I feel like people feel this intense pressure to do everything and do it all like at the max when you really it's it is a transition. You do have to assess what you can do right now what you're able to do what you have access to, and you know what's easiest to do right now and just kind of start from there. And so whether that's instead of maybe you want to go vegan or do more plant based, living, you know, if you just do meatless Mondays, that makes a huge difference. If everyone could just do that. That makes a huge impact within itself. You know? You know, when it comes to clothing, supporting sustainable brands, or even learning, like how to mend your own clothes, if you get a stain in a shirt, don't just throw it in the washing machine, if you can spot wash it by hand, so that consumes less water and energy. I mean, they're just little things that make such a huge difference if they were done on such a larger scale. And so, it is really a matter of picking what it is that's easiest for you to do and just doing that step. And then next week, adding this next thing, adding this next thing and then it starts to kind of build up and then it becomes natural for you. You've created a lifestyle that's better for the planet and is organic to how you live and move throughout the world. And I think if everyone did that everyone thought about it in that way, then it wouldn't be so daunting and you would see sustainable practices become even more common because it's almost casual, it's just Well, I'm going to try this I'm going to learn to do this, I'm going to bike today, you know, you might set a there's like a 30 minute rule like if it's if the distance is under 30 minutes or is 30 minutes or less to walk and you know, all walk or all bike so on and so forth. So I think that it's little things like that that are important for people to keep in mind as they're transitioning is to kind of be gentle with yourself and just take those steps and add on an add on because it builds up to really make a big impact.
Liz 22:40
I agree and, and you were also talking before a little bit about like dismantling the current system and that's, that's another layer right? That's about public private partnership. That's about taking our individual actions and and bringing them into the political arena. And I'd like to maybe just hear if you have any recommendations of books that kind of talk about some of these subjects that have really resonated with you. And if there's one particular idea or example that you can give about kind of wider systemic change that is going to require the participation of citizens of businesses and of government.
Maya 23:27
Yeah, so it's really like, I think what's important is, first of all, to remember that it's something that I've personally seen, especially with a lot of young people is they kind of feel like this, the whole political system is just kind of too daunting to even begin to understand. And so then they just don't, they don't they don't really take the time to to learn more about how everything works, why their vote is important. And you know, What happens after you go and beyond presidential elections? Also in your state and local elections, you know why, why it's so important to be engaged with all of that. And so the thing that's incredible is that there are so many resources online now. And unlike what we were kind of talking about earlier about this long distance, and this collaboration and learning how to use technology in this way, is that I think people are just now realizing the true power of the Internet, and realizing the true power of the technology that we have in how much information that we have at our fingertips. And so there are if you really just start, you know, again, looking into state and local elections and kind of following that that's actually a really good step. My first election was the end of the local gubernatorial election here in Georgia. And I was able to learn so much just through going through that process and figuring out, you know, what I was looking for and who was focusing on sustainability, and who was focusing in on really making a difference in those areas. I think that it's important to look at all of those different areas and know that your voice and your vote does matter. Because a lot of people feel like it doesn't a lot of times and that is definitely not true. It is so important to show up. It's so important to go that take that extra step to do the census to do all of these things that are just so crucial. Because that one less you know, Bo, that's one less voice not being heard. And that resonates, that really resonates in a way that a lot of people don't, you know, even expect I think people don't really fully know their true power. You know that they have no I think that now people are looking to kind of take that back. And it's important that we kind of keep that trend, especially of young people taking that power back and really making what is the right choice and the smart choice to see the results that they want to see in the world. And now these resources becoming more accessible to young people, and I'm doing a lot of campaigns now to to encourage youth voting. So all of those things are so important. And the reason why I also mentioned dismantling the system is because we do put a lot of responsibility on individual action, and that makes a huge difference. But you still need to have government recognition and implementation of these different plans to reduce carbon emissions, to conserve different species of wildlife and plants and you know, things that are so important to our survival. They both have to work hand in hand needs to be a societal and a cultural shift and a shift in in leadership in government and how that's implemented as well. So those kind of two things need to go hand in hand.
Liz 27:13
Absolutely. And it's it's about looking at what the agenda is have given leaders, but also about looking at how they think fundamentally, you know, are they the type of leader that's about, you know, going to approach a problem by putting a bandaid on it? Or are they really trying to understand first principles and understand the root of the problem? Because for me, what I've felt has become more clear as a priority. When looking to elect leaders is that point of looking for people who are trying to understand what is wrong with the system and how can that actually It's core be addressed, because maybe we wouldn't need so much help and charity from billionaires, if, for example, they did pay more taxes, entrepreneurship, critical to this country. Of course, you know, you're an entrepreneur, I'm an entrepreneur. But when businesses get so big, and they're able to avoid paying taxes because they have different businesses offshore, that does become a problem that does create a deficit in the federal government's budget, and we shouldn't have to rely on generosity to handle a crisis. So yeah, everything you're saying is, is is spot on and, and, and it comes down to then us as individuals realizing that who we elect is as much about the specificity of their policy as it is about their approach to problem solving in general.
Maya 29:01
Exactly. And it's also to it really important to recognize what surrounds the voting system and what issues actually do surround it. Because it's not like everything is perfect. And it's important to speak out on that and to let people know that you're educated on these issues. Because the more public awareness, there are of some of these issues, the more that we could see, you know, a rally for change, for example. Something that's really prevalent, especially in a lot of states, like where I live is voter suppression. And so that's the more you have a public outcry and awareness of that, you know, that really can hold a lot of political leaders and systems accountable in that way and Stacey Abrams, she has a really great campaign on you know, voter suppression and have a great organization and a project Around fighting that, and it's kind of things like that, that you also need to look into. And be aware of. So you can know, you know what's going on. And not just like, Oh, well, everything is, you know, kind of rigged, everything sucks, like find out why and like why things kind of happen the way that they do, educate yourself and see what you can do to prevent them and to also, you know, fight for that and fight against that, in your own community. There are a lot of organizations that are fighting against that those exact things like fair fight, or and more. So all of those things are, are really incredible. to kind of get engaged with and to educate yourself on to
Liz 30:46
Yeah. Oh, my Thank you so much. I feel like we all have a few bits of homework to do after this Stacey Abrams website. What is that?
Maya 30:57
It's fair fight, I believe I believe it's fairfight.org I'm not 100% sure if that is the URL. Okay. But, you know, that's, that's something that's really important and prevalent for, to focus on. So definitely want to make sure that I shared that to.
Liz 31:15
Go check it out. Thank you.
Maya 31:18
Yay.Thank you so much for having me to. This has just been really awesome to have this discussion.
Liz 31:24
Absolutely.
I'm just going to keep recording, but just so we can catch up for a minute, just in case there is something interesting that we want to throw in there, but we'll edit it most likely out. Okay. But how are you like, you're good. Your family? Yeah.
Maya 31:42
Yeah, families, good families. Okay, you know, thank goodness. Yeah. And I also do have family in Charlotte, North Carolina as well. And so they've been good to just checking in with them. And, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful that you know, we're all just doing, you know, doing good during this time. I know and being well, like, it's still extremely stressful and certain, you know, it's, it doesn't it's not like everything is just kind of magical and whatever, you know, it's still really hard and you can really just feel everyone's collective stress and fear. And then there are so many people who, you know, lives can be been completely turned upside down by what's happening and, you know, so it's all of that, you know, really, I always want to see what can I can do to help and what I can do to help and so, you know, I've been just trying to give back as much as possible while also trying to take care of myself and, you know, support my family members and do all this and my friends you know, it's been a really interesting time a lot my friends, you know, how are doing their online classes and you know, it's weird for them and There's just a lot going on.
Liz 33:02
Yeah, no, it is such a weird thing. Because the way that the majority of people are experiencing this is to stay at home. And yes, being isolated is hard. Yes. Not being able to go out and exercise your free will to go fly a kite or go to the beach is hard. But it's a lot harder to be on the front line of,
Maya 33:28
yes, a
Liz 33:30
hospital or an emergency room. And so, you know, there are people who are battling this professionally, in that respect, and there are people who are battling the disease itself. And so in a way, the experience of it is so polarizing.
Maya 33:49
Yeah, really is yeah, and the thing is, too, is that you know, these people that you know, want to go out just For no reason, and, you know, it's not essential and well, they're just like, well, I just, I just want to, you know, use my free will, I'm not afraid, and I'm not this. And it's not a thing you have to live in fear, but you have to, you know, be respectful of how you're affecting other people. You know, that's, that's the thing about it. It's not, no one's telling you to live in fear. It's just help us to, you know, to flatten the curve. Because the longer that, you know, that this goes on, and the more that we don't get this, this curve flattened, you know, we can be dealing with this for over a year up to 18 months. Nobody wants to do that. And that's going to cost even more lives. So it's kind of not a matter of, Oh, well, I'm mad because I have to stay home and you know, it's a thing of you have to really know how much power you have in staying home, how many lives that saving and how much of a positive impact that that is having. No, I think people, some people aren't really thinking about it in the right light. So to speak.
Liz 35:07
No, totally. We have a mantra protecting yourself is protecting others. And yeah. for so long actually,
Maya 35:15
Wow, that's so poignant for this time.
Liz 35:18
It, it really is. And it's such a unexpected example. And I wish it wasn't the case. But, you know, so often we think of protecting other people is protecting yourself, but it's really a circle. And yeah, it goes back to that notion of self care. And if you're taking care of yourself, then you're taking care of other people along the way. And that's, that's what, you know, each of the leaders that we're working with, including yourself is is really teasing out through the work that they do. You know, there's a lot of gray and it's it's a complicated world that we live in, and we're constantly living between the tension of good and evil, but actually most things are grey. So we've got to figure out that space. But
Maya 36:02
yeah, definitely. And my whole, like one of my big things that I push for because it's really big in environmental activism is interconnectivity. You know, how we are connected to everything, whether I speak to speaking to how much impact we all have as individuals, for speaking to the interconnectivity of ecosystems, so on and so forth. And I think that's been a big theme, so to speak, I don't know if theme is the right word, but of what's happening with COVID-19. We can see just how interconnected we are, how our one action can impact someone else, and impact the world, whether that's good or bad impact or so I think that that's something that's really been brought to the forefront of people's minds more, which I hope people can really, you know, learn from this that do need to and yeah, it's just really interesting. thing to see.
Liz 37:01
Yeah, no, I, I agree. And I feel like one of the silver linings of this could be that it allows everyone to see what happens when the entire world is vulnerable. And that yes, Ace if climate change isn't addressed, and so, you know, perhaps perhaps this is a moment of foreshadowing that can motivate us to transform our behavior individually and collectively.
Maya 37:32
I think so. Yeah.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders taking on contemporary issues through business, creativity, and advocacy.
This transcript has been lightly edited for readability.
Elizabeth Suda discusses with Sandra Capponi, Co-Founder of Good On You
Liz 0:03
Cool. What type of tea? Are you drinking?
Sandra 0:09
I'm drinking an English Breakfast tea.
Liz 0:12
A little caffeine kick.
Sandra 0:14
Yeah, yeah, I do really love my coffee. Being from Melbourne you know everyone who drinks coffee, but it's part of my afternoon routine I would say to take some time to stop and either brew myself or shout myself I really nice black coffee.
Liz 0:34
That's interesting. You, you'll have a coffee in the afternoon that's always scared me a little bit. I know I'm on a path to destruction if I do that, and then I'm, I'm awake.
Sandra 0:45
Well, yeah, I think the afternoon is still fine. It might have something to do with my Italian roots. You know, we drink coffee all the time and especially after a meal.
Liz 0:57
Okay, that's that is quite fair. I did recognize your name. So how did your family end up in Australia?
Sandra 1:04
Um, in the 60s, I think it was both my parents migrated to Australia, along with literally millions of other Italians at that time. You know, there was a big migration from Italy to the states as well, in the 60s, post war era, and yeah, a big arrangement between our governments to allow people to settle here. So they're still, you know, really big, private community. And this story is not all that unique, but I think it really has kind of shaped my upbringing and you know, who I am today because of the yeah, their story.
Liz 1:44
Well, I mean, it's like having this dual identity and as an American, I've always felt connection to European roots, actually, because I think that's something Australians and Americans share the sense of movement and my family was also from Italy, Greece and Czechoslovakia and then let's just say Scotland, Ireland. So, yeah, growing up in school, we were always very encouraged to talk about our ancestry and so forth. And then when you talk to my French husband, he's like, i'm French. What do you mean?
Sandra 2:32
Just, black and white.
Liz 2:33
Yeah welcome to America. You were a Frenchman in America. I am American, but also these other layers of things.
Sandra 2:43
Many other things, many other things.
Liz 2:44
Do you have family in Italy?
Sandra 2:47
We do. Um, thankfully, they're all safe. Obviously, we've been watching the situation in Italy really closely. And you know, being concerned for, just you know that the really sad crazies situation in the country and I know it's worsening everywhere now also in the States. So far we're quite fortunate in Australia, but I've been particularly concerned about family and friends. We also have a team member in Italy. Team members all over the world that were, you know, trying to make sure they're okay and staying safe.
Liz 3:28
Yeah. And where? Where, where is your family based in Italy?
Sandra 3:36
My father's family's is from a little town called some family sheds about an hour outside of Rome. So central Italy. My mother is also from Central Italy, a region called uproot. So okay, a little bit out outside of the hot zone.
Liz 3:53
Not too far.
Sandra 3:54
Not too far.
Liz 3:55
It really does make you realize how interconnected the world is and how we are just all part of the same sky. We're all looking at the same constellations at night. We're all, you know, at the end of the day, living, very different versions of the same stories and in this particular case, so uniquely, it is almost the same version of the very same story. And it's so rare that that is actually the case where you have something so viscerally affecting everybody, or many people in this very real way where the economy is shut down, and people's lives are at stake. And I don't know I mean, I'm hoping that there's some benefit to us realizing that interconnection and not going the opposite direction, where we become more isolated from each other, but
Sandra 5:10
I completely agree with you on all of those thoughts have really consumed me over the past few weeks in that, you know, this, this shines a light on on our connectedness like never before, I believe and, you know, I think that that presents an opportunity for us to feel more connected as humanity and and to feel more connected to the planet we all share. But you know, I do also worry that it in many ways create sentiment, you know, maybe makes people feel more antagonistic or, or more, you know, concerned about themselves in the short term.
Liz 5:54
It is interesting how any sort of kind of revolution or a moment of transformation has that kind of tension where it could go either way. And even on a personal basis, you know, it’s such an incredible moment to reflect how has your life on a very kind of basic level transforms, like what does your day look like and how is it different than it was before?
Sandra 6:27
It's very different. I'm not used to standing still. But, you know, in some ways, the the way I work hasn't actually changed and, and my work is, is a big part of my life. You know, it's my passion. It's, it's, it's what I feel committed to, and and Good on You. Fortunately, has you know, always operated online from every corner of the earth, you know, wherever we are is where where we do our work. And so, you know, that that really has has stayed the same and has, you know, kept me focused and, and, and kept our whole team really committed to the same purpose. But you know, personally, my day is usually, you know, really, really different every day is is usually really different because, you know, I'm on pursuing what I think is the most important thing to take me personally and take our team collectively forward. So I actually just recently returned from overseas I've spent a lot of time in Europe in particular last few years where we're seeing a lot of great response to to our work and where I'm seeing a lot of great opportunity to connect and partner and explore opportunities with people and and so yeah, you know going from that life of running from city to city engaging with all different types of people and talking about how we can come together to do things suddenly feels flowed right slowed right down and yeah, that's that's an interesting interesting place in a debate something that I'm I'm I'm still coming to terms with I think.
Liz 8:43
It's an interesting moment where, you know, it's a choice to have a sense of optimism or not, in a way and I'm choosing optimism but it is scary because there's a point at which if it passes a certain amount of time, that panic will, will set in. But I think that's the beauty of being, you know, human like we, we can be really resourceful like we have, we have the ability to solve problems in a way that maybe other animals can't. And collectively, if we work together, we can do that from within our own little home units. But also we have this inter-connection through the internet. And so I'm myself I'm choosing the more optimistic direction and, and probably you are too, based on what you do and Good on You.
So, maybe tell us a little bit more about how you became co-founder and actually like a little bit about what led you to where you are today. What did you do before? And what was that aha moment?
Sandra 10:10
Mm hmm. So I worked for many years in the corporate sector, in banking of all things. And I spent that time I think, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to do, but recognizing that business was was an important tool, and I thought that I was, you know, learning skills and that I would eventually leave, leave the business sector to go and pursue some kind of passion but I just haven't figured out what that was yet. I always had a bent for social justice that comes from many things, my great education, maybe a little bit also my parents having that history of really starting from nothing and building, you know, their their success from the ground up. And, and so, you know, I thought it was always important to give everybody a fair go and to make sure everybody had had access to opportunities. But yeah, what do you know how that was going to manifest in a career I really struggled with years. But, I recall you know, being in business and being at a bank here in Australia, and suddenly having, you know, an aha moment of, hang on a second, you know, maybe I can actually put my business skills to, to good, you know, use in terms of addressing social and environmental issues and that, even more importantly, if businesses put their skills and resources and capital to good use, then, you know, we could have a really big impact. We could change things in the world for so much better. I discovered this thing called corporate social responsibility and eventually worked in that field. Where, you know, I had I had the chance to work on gender diversity issues in big corporates, I had the chance to work on indigenous inclusion initiatives on financial inclusion initiatives making sure you know people in all work works of life could access the basic needs of of financial services could get access to money. And, yeah, I really enjoyed that that time in my career, but eventually got to a point where I got tired, I got impatient with the, the slow pace of change and I got tired of trying to convince people within the contracts, the constructs of, of the corporate environment, that that social and environmental issues were important that they were core to business.
Liz 13:04
Yeah.
Sandra 13:05
And I started to see, you know, a movement outside of business, I guess you could call it a consumer movement that I felt really personally aligned with, you know, I was thinking more and more about my individual choices. And, you know, still today I research everything before I decide what to buy. And I realized that, you know, I wasn't alone and that, you know, more and more people were wanting to make conscious values based sustainable decisions. And that that consumer demand and that consumer movement could actually have a really important role in shifting business behavior.
Liz 13:50
So it sounds like you're,[At Good On You,] you're really giving a lot of power to the consumer and you know there's always the classic chicken egg question of, you know how change happens. And the reality is it's always very, very complicated. And I never answer that question where it starts and ends because it never does.
But how do you kind of negotiate that reality where there does need to be public, private partnership. There does need to be buy in across governments and businesses and consumers. How do you, how do you see good on you in terms of being a business and leading that way? But then how do you look at how important it is for governments and consumers to really take charge as well?
Sandra 14:56
Yeah. So Good on You is all about empowering people to know the impact of brands so that they can make better decisions. And so their decisions can drive business behavior, business businesses to be better. And I think that that is super important because people often defer responsibility to somebody else to, to government to businesses. But ultimately, we all have a role to play and to your point, that there is no clear answer to everything. It is complicated and but, you know, I think everybody not only has a responsibility, but you know, a lot of people want to want to do something about it. Lots of people do care and if it was easy for them to do something about it, they would. And same with business, you know, lots of them at their core do have a great, great purpose. But you know that they have lots of lots of infrastructure and and people and priorities around them that that prevent, prevent that change. And same with government, you know, they're mandated to do a lot and and they can't just solve everybody's problems. So I think there is a role for everyone and all different types of organizations to come together in these but starting by recognizing the individual power is incredibly important, incredibly critical, you know, part of the solution that I think if we all recognize we could we could take things further, much, much more quickly.
Liz 16:51
And I mean, it really at the end of the day, what I think ARTICLE22 is about and definitely what Good on You is about is systemic change and how to make that happen depends on, you know, all three actors, consumers, governments and businesses, if we boil it down to just three really being aware and educated and then putting pressure on one another to make the change happen. And the awareness, it seems, is what Good on You is all about. And I think just very broadly, the world we're living in right now with COVID-19 it's it's proof that you can't just put band aids on things like investing. For the moment when something goes wrong, is when you might need fewer band aids because you've been able to avoid needing the band aid to cover a wound. And in a way, it seems that we're at a point where we live in a globalized world, we're connected technologically, we can connect on a personal basis like this, we have the ability to ship goods, thousands of miles across the globe and we need to realize that just as a pandemic can move very quickly, the effects of exploitation of our environment and humans and making products is as real and far more deadly, actually. And so it seems that what Good on You is trying to do is make it easier for everyday citizens to everyday consumers to just buy better.
And I couldn't agree more about that and that's or with that, and that's what we at ARTICLE22 to do in a very particular niche way, with our partners in Laos, so yeah, I mean, how, how are you kind of negotiating, being an entrepreneur at this time, COVID-19 era in this new moment of normal, and very specifically, how does it feel to be non-essential? And do you think you're not essential as a fashion brand? Or a fashion platform?
Sandra 19:44
Yeah. Well, there's lots of there's lots of things in those questions. I think, you know, being an entrepreneur is about is about navigating problems and it's about seeing the opportunity. And you know now more than ever is is the time to to face into challenges and to to use that to reset to refocus and to go for, you know what what is good. And you know when I think about that question is is Good on You really relevant is fashion is buying fashion or jewelry really relevant right now? Well that that's not all all we're about. We're, we're about you know, people that want to buy consciously, people that want to do things that make them feel good because they know that you know, the things that they buy the clothes that they're wearing have come from a good place. And because they know that they're supporting brands that are doing the right thing, they're supporting people and companies that have a good story to tell. And those things are more relevant now than than ever before, we believe, you know. Knowing that you're that you're able to do things with integrity that you know, don't compromise your values and knowing that you're supporting others who are also, you know, protecting other people and, and the planet that we all share is incredibly relevant and, you know, so important in in this in this new context that we all find ourselves in. So, you know, our team has really rallied behind that weight, we feel more committed than ever to, to live out our mission to, you know, empower our community with the information that they're looking for in our communities, you know, showing us that they're still active, they're still coming to us for information on, on what brands are doing, what fashion brands are doing, they're still coming to us for, you know, an understanding of what's happening in fashion and how that's impacting on the environment and how especially now we'll have what how it's impacting on workers. And they want to know which brands they can connect with who has who has a positive impact, who has a great story, who's local who's protecting, you know, the very makers of our clothes, who who is doing those things that can make them feel feel good when when they're doing what we all do which is wear clothes and engage with, with you know, beautiful creative things that that make life better.
Liz 23:00
Yeah. And that that human touch is essential. That is essential. You know. So, I think that's probably one of the biggest mind shift mindset shifts, that we as a society, need to have on more of a mass scale rather than a niche one, which is that everything we touch in the course of a day, was touched by many other humans before. And their stories are, we are connected to them through those objects, whether it's a piece of technology, the car, we drive, you know, a beam that is, you know, holding up a wall in your house like it's touched by many hands. And so, I I'm with you, I think that's completely essential.
Now this is probably a question I would have been a little bit more focused on in another moment, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Because Corona COVID-19 won't be here forever. And it has more to do with how there are some positive things about fast fashion when it comes to identity and confidence and self image from the perspective of the person that's wearing it. And I'm specifically pointing out, I suppose, a point about price, in that it's very accessible so everyone could have the latest, quote, unquote, fashion, and that obviously has had massive appeal. Everyone, including myself, has been a participant in that and I'd love to know little bit about what you've seen as far as brands that are marked good or great on good on you in relation to pricing and accessibility, and what you what you think is actually an answer to that point for, you know, making the market bigger at some point.
Sandra 25:25
Hmm. Again, a couple of things. I think, firstly, what one of the key insights that we have at Good on You is that even you know, the most passionate environmentalists don't just think about sustainability when when they're buying anything, but you know, particularly when they're buying fashion that there are a whole raft of considerations from you know, style and location and some, some sort of emotional affinity with a brand but of course price, you know, people have different levels of affordability and you know different different ways that they can make purchases at different times. So, we see it as part of our role to empower people with information on on the sustainability of brands to also couple that with everything else, you know, that is important to them and that's in their consideration set so that so that they can make the best decision for them at that time. Having said that, we we are also trying to, I guess, in a way dispel the myth that that sustainable fashion is always really expensive. And, and to go back a little bit to the concept of value. There are, there are many good and great brands that we have rated. So, you know, we have a rating out of five and good and great a four out of five and five out of five and many of those that represent a whole raft of, of styles of product categories and of price ranges. You know, there are a lot of brands out there that are trying to show you know, you can you can engage with fashion and not have to compromise on the other things you care about. Whilst you know, still respecting the environment and the makers and animals. There are also brands that are I think, yeah helping to redefine that concept of value and and showing that you know, fast fashion is, it's about, it's about cheap clothing, but it's also about, you know, consuming and going through clothing really quickly. And so actually the, the value per wear can can often be quite high, you know, you might only be paying $5 up front for a T shirt, but if you're only getting one or two wears out of it, then that that can be quite expensive. Whereas, you know, another brand that on the surface upfront there's, there's a higher outlay to purchase, if that's lasting you a really long time because of its quality, or because of its trend seasonality. And just because, you know, you, you, you know the story of the brand and so you might cherish it in a different way. All of these things, yeah point to a higher value that that you associate with that product.
Liz 29:03
Yeah, no, I feel you because often I get the question well, why did you choose jewelry? You know, and I say well first of all, this was a brilliant local innovation by the artisans that we work with who first started making soup spoons in the 1970s. And you can't be more creative or practical in selling soup spoons to the local market, which eats noodle soup, breakfast, lunch and dinner. And so it was just so brilliant and for a global market, it was going to be more challenging to sell spoons, and so jewelry just felt like the most obvious thing to me at the time because it is the thing that I remember when I look at you know, my my my jewelry box or my possessions I remember who gave it to me for what occasion, and I have those things for life. Maybe I even collected it as a souvenir on a trip. And so I have an emotional attachment to it as I wear it. And then of course, I envision giving it to my daughter one day or my sister or my mother, whatever. But there is this connection with the thing. Because it isn't going to end up in a landfill. It just wouldn't make sense to but the value isn't only in the material, it's in the story and you know, who gifted it. So I, I absolutely believe in the power of that. And to your point, the number of times that you wear something is also a testament to how much you like it. So if you spend a little more on something that you really, really love, it's worth it. And it's been a very natural progression for me to get to that point. Actually, it wasn't sustainability. You know, starting maybe 15 years ago, 10 years ago, I really started focusing on what sustainability meant in fashion and and in my life. But it really actually started for me with that emotional connection. And I was noticing that, mostly, not always, but mostly the things that I spent more on. I was very conscious about making that decision to spend that amount. And they've lived in my closet for much longer. So, I mean, you're onto something, Sandra.
Sandra 31:50
We both are.
Liz 31:53
Yeah, it's really helpful because I think one of the things that's so difficult is that everyone's so busy. And I don't know about you, but I definitely feel especially living in New York City, Brookyln, specifically, like a decision fatigue. Like, it's a very, very real thing. So, I'm really excited about Good on You, from a consumers perspective, because I'm happy if somebody can help me make decisions, I, I don't have to work so hard to make the decision and to do all of the research, you know, I'll do still some research, but if someone's done some of the vetting for me, that's very comforting. So I I love that.
So so now, like, just a fun question. Were when you look at yourself today, and then you look back, has there been any, like, moment of surprise? I mean, you answered this a little bit with regard to your parents. kind of coming over to Australia and being immigrants and starting from scratch. But I don't know is there anything even from your childhood where you look back and you connect the dots to where you are today but at the time you would never have have known where you would be? And it's okay if there's nothing but.
Sandra 33:20
Yeah. I think it maybe goes back to that time that I mentioned before when I suddenly realized that business could be good. Yeah. And it was a really specific moment. I remember I was sitting in in my courtyard you know, with the coffee outside just reflecting on a few things and I had that that thought and then just suddenly, you know, rushed back to my computer to to research you know, what was my company doing and how could I could get involved in whether volunteer opportunities and it just, you know, spiraled into a whole heap of thinking and an action really, I'm very kind of much a do-er. And so, and and that moment, I think led me to, to where I am today what you know, leading Good on You with my co founder. Even that moment of meeting Gordon was, was really a turning point. He had actually, you know, started Good on You, he had done a lot of the research from a consumer perspective, being, you know, working as a consumer lawyer and a consumer advocate for many years here in Australia. He through his research and seeing firsthand that kind of sentiment that I was feeling that more and more consumers were wanting to make values based decisions, but just couldn't find the information in the market and, you know, meeting him at that time when I was starting to feel a little bit disengaged from my working business, it all just suddenly clicked like, you know, yeah, exactly that that's the next progression of what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to take my knowledge of business and my understanding of of the drivers to be more, you know, socially and environmentally impactful and and work on on the outside, you know, on this grassroots movement on this on this people movement to shift business to that next level. So, yeah, you know, if I, if I think about that moment, it was sitting outside in my my courtyard with a cup of coffee that ultimately led me to where I am today.
Liz 35:51
Well, it sounds like you're ready for another revelation because given that we're all in solitude, negative space, that have that power to cleanse our minds and the soul. So you know that you might be on to your next aha moment within the company. Um, there's a partner of ours that I mean, Beatrix Ost, she is the very first collaborator we ever started working with. And her message actually, I am wearing this and this is a complete coincidence, but it's "In your body is a good place to be". And it's her mantra. And, you know, some people are like, oh, what does that mean? Like, are you from Boston? Are you a prude? Just kidding. But clearly, it you know, it really is the most essential, essential point. It's that you're with yourself and you're the one that has control over yourself and how to maintain that control I think is probably the hardest thing in our frenetic, interconnected modern world. And one of her other mantras is "Practicing Silence". And so she would go to parties in the 70s wearing this pin that we've now reproduced that, that says "Practicing Silence". And she would own it and just point to the pin and force people to talk about themselves. So she was totally engaged, but she just wanted to listen.
Sandra 37:35
Wow.
Liz 37:36
So, you know, it, I think of this moment where we are and I think of her particular messages, because that that's really what we all have to do. And then the other part is to, to imagine that, that utopia, it's imagine the promised land, and even if we don't get there in our lifetime to believe it's possible. I guess.
And so to end on an extreme note, that might force you to make exaggerated claims. Let's not call them claims but like, what would be whether you see it whether I see it in my lifetime, like what is your, your dream like where do you feel like you know, we've… what would it take to reach kind of that Promised Land of sustainability and consumption be like?
Sandra 38:50
I mean, I definitely have to say this within our lifetime and that is a world where people, you know, everybody, you and me, we can make decisions about the things we care about. When we're buying fashion when we're buying food when we're you know, making everyday decisions just as easily as we can, you know, make decisions about price and you know that whether we prefer color red or black, that way we'll be able to feel a real connection with you know, other things and products of beauty and understand, you know, where it's come from and use that as part of our decision making. And, you know, ultimately, brands and companies will be totally transparent about that. It'll be completely normal for, for them to communicate what they're doing and for us to be able to use that information to act with intent. Yeah.
Liz 40:15
Well said, well said. Well, we are with you, we are working completely in parallel as partners. So we're really happy to have discovered you. Because you discovered us, we discovered because suddenly we started seeing referrals from your site to, you know, GoodonYou.eco. Good on You. Eco or eco. How do you say it?
Sandra 40:48
Um, eco.
Liz 40:50
Eco. Yeah. That should have been obvious but goodonyou.eco to ARTICLE22.com and that is what prompted us to get in touch and say, "Hey, tell us more. Thank you for doing what you do. What a great surprise." So yeah, we really appreciate it and look forward to maybe bringing someone your, from your team over to Laos at some point. So.
Sandra 41:22
I'd love that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, our team loves what you do, it's really easy for us to, you know, first assess what your brand is doing against our methodology because, you know, it's based on just looking at, at what's been published, and, you know, it's easy to assess a brand like audience ARTICLEE22 because you are being really transparent and open about how you work and the things you consider and you're, you're working in Laos. And then you know, we we take that, that ratings information and in corporated into our content and in our stories where we're celebrating the best brands in ethical, sustainable fashion. And again, app team loves writing about ARTICLE22. Because it's a great story to tell.
Liz 42:11
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I mean, at this point, we're ready to bring who's ever ready to come over once this madness ends, and, you know, eventually it's crossed our mind and people should let us know. Well, maybe we should send out a survey to know if they'd be interested in kind of a guided trip to because this is this is the thing although we're, you know, thousands of miles apart and the jewelry travels the globe. I mean, we have customers in over 30 countries maybe over 40 at this point. Yeah. And consistently. I you know, in the event that we can we can bring people to have the adventure and the love affair that we have every time we go you know, that's, that's really direct to consumer.
Sandra 43:01
For sure, I can tell you now I personally would really love that experience. And I know many people in the Good on You team and the Good on You community would yeah, would love, love to connect at that level with your brand and your story.
Liz 43:15
Cool. Well, it's 2021 goals.
Sandra 43:21
Let's do it.
Liz 43:22
Sounds good. Sandra, thank you so much for your time. This was really fun. I'm glad we had the chance to do it. And when you come to New York, we look forward to hosting you when that can happen, too. So.
Sandra 43:37
Thank you, Liz. It was really nice to talk and I know we've been back on back and forth on email. And it's so nice just to have a conversation. So thanks for for making the time and creating the space in amongst all of this craziness to do that and go back to what's important to us.
Liz 43:53
Totally. Well, have a wonderful day.
Sandra 43:56
You too. Take care.
Liz 43:58
Ciao ciao.
Sandra 43:58
Bye for now.
Stories of transformation from Laos and beyond in the words of leaders, artists and activists, taking on contemporary issues through creativity and advocacy.